[中][ENG] 本地舞蹈生態面面談 Chatting about Local Dance Scene

上兩期我們先後訪問了《舞蹈手札》的早期編輯與作者，分享了他們在編採與撰寫專題及評論文章的經驗。今期我們就把焦點拉近一點，分別請來兩位舞評人：朱琼愛（Daisy）、俞若玫（Cally），以及兩位舞蹈藝術家：楊雲濤（雲濤）、梅卓燕（小梅），一同聊聊近十年香港舞蹈界的一些現象與變化，並且談談他們的經驗和觀察。

In the last two issues, we interviewed previous editors and writers of dance journal/hk, who shared their experiences in editing, writing features, and critiques. For this issue, we will bring the focus closer to dance. We invited two dance critics – Daisy Chu and Cally Yu – and two artists – Yang Yuntao and Mui Cheuk-yin. The four discussed the trends and changes in Hong Kong’s dance scene in the past decade, as well as their own experiences and observations.

場地缺乏性格，觀眾難以分流

Daisy率先提到近年越來越多「撞SHOW」的現象，同一個週末可能有兩三個份量相當的演出同時上演，即使只計算舞蹈演出，數量也不少，足見本地創作力之旺盛。不過，熱衷於欣賞舞蹈的觀眾數量已經不多，若然不同製作還要互相爭取觀眾，情況就更糟，一眾舞迷只好疲於奔命或者進行取捨。

Performance Venues Lack Personalities to Differentiate Audiences

Chu first brought up the phenomenon of shows “clashing” with each other. There can be two to three new productions on the same weekend. Even if only dance performances are counted, the number is not small, signifying the abundance of local creations.

Yet, the number of eager dance viewers is not high, and shows fighting for audience with each other exacerbates the situation. Dance zealots have to keep very busy with shows or to make a choice.

小梅認為此情況難以避免，除非像美國紐約般，有不同類型與特色的劇場，滿足不同之觀眾群，如百老匯、外百老匯，以至外外百老匯，各有不一樣的製作定位，觀眾都很清楚在每一個劇場裏會看到甚麼，單從場地的特色就能夠找到自己心儀的節目，不必倚賴節目單張。然而，香港的表演場地大多為公營的多功能劇院，場地與場地之間都沒有明顯的分界線，欠缺各自的特色，無論是畢業禮還是大型演藝節目，也同樣會放在同一個劇院，其實是一個很畸形的現象，觀眾根本沒有途徑去追蹤分辨。小梅指若有不同性格的劇場出現，觀眾就自然可以分流，犯不著要各個製作「困獸鬥」。

Mui reckoned that this is inevitable, unless Hong Kong has a similar setting as that in New York, where different types of theatres come with different features. They cater to different audiences such as Broadway, Off-Broadway and Off-Off-Broadway – they have different positions so viewers have a clue what they will watch in each of these theatres. They can find the shows they like simply based on the theatre’s characteristics, rather than having to read through information on each programme.

However, Hong Kong’s theatres are mostly publicly-owned multifunctional venues without apparent distinctive features and boundaries. A theatre can house both a graduation ceremony and a large-scale performance. This is, in fact, a very peculiar phenomenon as this leaves no way for viewers to follow or identify. Mui said if there are theatres of different personalities, audiences can then be differentiated, so that shows don’t have to go head-to-head.

Cally就注意到近年獨立舞者及舞團的數量皆有所增加，而且也有不少新舞種、新類型的表演出現。這些別具實驗冒險精神的創作，很可能只是在舊區內某個單位，又或者天台的一角演出，像在罅縫中冒出來。即使現在在工廠區內有很多實驗演出，但製作團隊卻因怕工廈土地用途的政策而被打壓，難以公開演出地點，觀眾只能透過短訊獲得詳細的地址訊息。Daisy與小梅皆同意這些在工廈的演出能夠為觀眾提供另類選擇，但由於在工廠內舉辦演出，牽涉到一定數量的觀眾，滿足不到防火條例的要求就運行不了，故不能夠公開宣傳，難以接觸有興趣的觀眾群。

Yu noticed the growing number of independent dancers and dance groups in recent years as well as the emergence of new types of dances and shows. The adventurous works might take place in an apartment in an old district or at a corner on a rooftop, as if popping up from a tiny crack. Despite taking place in the industrial areas, many experimental productions fear being suppressed by the industrial land use policy, so they tend not to make their venue public and viewers can only know the address from private text messages. Chu and Mui believed that these performances in factories can offer alternative choices for viewers, but if venues in factories cannot fulfil the requirements of fire safety, the shows cannot take place officially so they are not able to publicize it, making it difficult to access potential audiences.

（左起）朱琼愛、俞若玫、楊雲濤、梅卓燕 (From Left) Daisy Chu and Cally Yu, Yang Yuntao and Mui Cheuk-yin; 攝Photo: 陳瑋鑫William Chan

資助制度僵化，創作支援有限

資源分配亦是直接影響創作質量的另一個大題目。小梅提到現在的資助制度，要求藝術家要有創作才有收入，故此創作人難以以輕鬆的態度去嘗試，亦缺乏空間去進行實驗，創作人往往自己還未了解作品，就已經被逼要放上舞台。若是該作品沒有巡演或再重演的機會，最終就只會淪為塵封於櫃桶底下的產物。所以近年小梅也為業界盡量爭取更多作品重演的機會，即使未能在香港再演，也要讓他們出外，希望作品可以透過不斷演出，有完善進步的機會。

Rigid Subsidy System and Limited Support for Artistic Creation

Resource allocation is a direct element affecting the quality of work. Mui said the current subsidy system requires artists to create before being funded. Artists cannot go into a project with an open, relaxed attitude, and they have insufficient space to experiment. Before truly knowing their own work, they are forced onto the stage. If the piece does not go on tour or get reruns, it becomes a product covered by dust in the attic. That is why Mui in recent years has been fighting for more chances for colleagues to rerun – even if these artworks are not shown again in Hong Kong, she hopes they can go out of the city and by rerunning, become refined and improved.

雲濤就認為創作人應該要好好思考為甚麼要做演出？如果創作純粹是為了要取得資助，最終只會產生內耗，把所以創作精力都消耗殆盡，更糟糕的是可能創作者自己也不知道。他直言現在他工作的香港舞蹈團是一個獲公帑資助的舞團，故此在創作上也不可能純粹考慮藝術，而是要從整個舞團的運作去作決定，斷不能只是為了滿足一些藝術上的追求。

Yang said creators should ask themselves why they produce the shows. If the aim is purely for subsidies, internal friction will erode all the creative energy. What’s worse is that the artist might have no knowledge of this. He admitted that the Hong Kong Dance Company, where he is currently working at, is a publicly subsidized dance company, so its creation pursues more than artistic concerns. The operation of the whole organization is often taken into account, rather than solely artistic pursuit.

小梅認為最理想是每一個製作也能夠有足夠三個月維持創作人生計的資助，去支持創作人安心創作，分階段進行試演，讓有潛力的作品可以拾級而上，好像比利時經典舞作《Rosas danst Rosas》，也是先在邊緣的劇場試演，才獲其他劇院邀約，一步一步走到大劇院以至世界。因此她認為可以嘗試建立不同資助階梯，支持每個階段值得發展的作品，並且應該要持續去培育一個創作人，而不是單就獨立的計劃申請作考慮。

Mui believed that the most ideal system should enable subsidies that support artists’ three-month livelihood for each artwork. They can conduct trial performances in different stages so pieces with potential can rise to fame gradually, like the classic dance piece Rosas danst Rosas from Belgium, which went through trial performances in fringe theatres before stepping up by invitation to grand theatres and then globally. She thought that by trying to set up funding systems of different hierarchies, the systems can support the pieces that stand out at each level. Funding systems should consistently nurture an artist, instead of taking applications one by one as independent cases.

Daisy同意有關建立分階梯的資助制度，並且認為理想的做法是能夠提供二至三年的資助，去培養一位藝術家，不一定要他／她們每兩、三個月就產出新作，又或者最終要求有完整的作品生成，而是可以先作試演，再一步步給予空間、時間去雕琢作品。小梅覺得這個建議有可能實踐，但整個制度及決策者思維都必須要改變，始終目前兩大資助機構藝術發展局與民政事務局的資助審批方式，其實只是救急，而非著眼於藝術的長遠發展。

Chu echoed Mui’s suggestion of setting up funding systems of different hierarchies. She suggested that the ideal subsidy can support and nurture an artist for two to three years. It should not force a new piece from them every two to three months or demand a complete work at the end, but rather, artists can have trial performances so they have time and space to polish their pieces. Mui reckoned that the suggestion is plausible, but it requires changes in the whole institution and the decision makers’ mindset. She said the subsidy approval system of the two major sponsors, Hong Kong Arts Development Council and the Home Affairs Bureau, are only band aids but fail to consider the long-term development of arts.

評論與創作平台支援的今昔變化

回看近十年的評論方式，Cally表示有很大的轉變。她說十年前撰寫評論時，自己要去找很多資料，盡量去了解有關舞團或舞者的過往作品及相關資料等等。現在就比較幸運，能夠自己走入排練室觀看創作過程，也有不同的創作工作坊讓評論人去參與。透過這些活動，評論人可以了解更多創作者的性格，以及他／她們如何與其他人溝通合作，更加能夠從人的進路去認識創作，而非只看到最後在舞台上呈現的作品。

Changes in Critiques and Creative Platform Support

Having reviewed the ways of writing critiques, Yu observed big changes. She said a decade ago, she had to look for information and make the effort to understand the dance group or dancers’ previous pieces and relevant information. It’s more fortunate now that critics can observe the creative process in rehearsal rooms and they can participate in creative workshops. Critics can learn about the creation through knowing the artists’ personalities and how the artists interact and cooperate with others via these activities, rather than only learning from the final performance on stage.

Daisy提到近年不少藝團也開始邀請評論人去觀察排練，希望在創作階段能夠收到更多交流意見。她同意若然有機會看到更多創作的過程，不單能夠拉近評論與創作者之間的關係，也對了解作品很有幫助。所以她現在一方面仍有定期撰寫個別演出作品的評論，但另一方面，她也希望可以緊跟一些創作人，從旁欣賞他／她們的創作發展，使評論可以成為創作人的成長記錄，也為日後的研究留下重要一筆。

Chu said in recent years many dance groups have been inviting critics to view rehearsals and seeking to receive feedback during the creative stage. She agreed that if there is opportunity to observe the creative process, it helps bring critics and artists closer as well as understanding the piece better. Therefore, on the one hand, she pens critiques for shows individually, while on the other hand she wishes to follow the artists to observe their creative development, so that critiques can record their growth and act as an important role in future research.

小梅回想八十年代初，演出場地比較開放，如城市劇場（現CCDC舞蹈中心賽馬會舞蹈小劇場地下）就孕育了不少精彩的實驗作品，圖片顯示1987年曾在城市劇場上演的節目；圖片由城市當代舞蹈團提供。 Mui recalled in the 1980s’, it was fortunate that the show performance venues were more available than now. City Contemporary Theater (the current CCDC Dance Centre Jockey Club Dance Theatre), located on the ground floor of CCDC Dance Centre, fostered many fascinating trial shows. This photo shows production staged in City Contemporary Theater in 1987. Photo provided by City Contemporary Dance Company.

至於作為編舞與舞蹈團藝術總監的雲濤，就記得十多年前初到香港時，並沒有那麼多的平台讓年青編舞發表作品，但今天機會已大大增多。小梅也表示演出發表平台對創作人來說十分重要，她回想八十年代初出道時，的確比較幸運，因為那時候演出場地比較開放，如位於CCDC舞蹈中心地下的城市劇場（現賽馬會舞蹈小劇場）就孕育了不少精彩的實驗作品；不過到了九十年代，可能因為地產市道暢旺，很多場地都消失了，直到近十年才再次復甦，如香港舞蹈團設立了「八樓平台」，城市劇場的舊址也重新以小劇場的方式重現，而環境劇場的發展亦開拓了另一空間。小梅認為整體舞壇是有進步的，過去我們經歷過茂盛期，然後一度跌入黑洞，現在總算是再次回來，向更多元出發。

Choreographer and the artistic director of the Hong Kong Dance Company, Yang recalled that over ten years ago, when he had just arrived in Hong Kong, there were very few platforms for young choreographers to present their works, but the opportunities today are much more. Mui pointed out that platforms for presenting artworks are significant for artists. She recalled when she debuted in the 1980s, it was fortunate that performance venues were more available than now. City Contemporary Theater (the current CCDC Dance Centre Jockey Club Dance Theatre), located on the ground floor of CCDC Dance Centre, fostered many fascinating trial shows. Yet, during the 1990s, possibly due to the prosperity of the property market, many venues were gone, not until the past decade. For example, The Hong Kong Dance Company established the “8/F Platform”, while the site of the previous Theatre de la Villa reappeared as a small theatre. The emergence of site-specific performances also opened up an alternative space. Mui believed the dance scene did improve generally. We experienced the peak in the past and fell into a black hole, but we got back up and are heading towards diversity.

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特別嗚謝以下贊助人支持《舞蹈手札》二十週年紀念專題

Special thanks to the following donors in supporting 20th Anniversary Feature for dance journal/hk 陳寶珠 Pearl Chan 劉燕玲 Stella Lau 龍世儀 Shirley Loong

羅佳娜 Natasha Rogai 施德安 Cecil Sze 譚兆民 Paul Tam 衛承天 Septime Webre 黃建宏 Kevin Wong 吳報釧 Sylvia Wu