[中][ENG] 舞動樂音：專訪音樂創作人李勁松和梁寶榮
Music and Dance: Interviews with Music Creators Dickson Dee and Leung Po-wing
文：蔡嘉雯
《那一年．這一天》As If To Nothing／攝 Photo：Conrado Dy Liaco（照片由城市當代舞蹈團提供 Photo provided by City Contemporary Dance Company）
音樂與聲音，在舞蹈創作的角色很是微妙：有人會覺得最理想的狀態是恍如「聽不到」樂音，讓兩者與其他舞台元素有機共存；但有些音樂卻是舞作概念呈現的重要構成。到底音樂人與音樂，是怎樣介入舞蹈表演？音樂在舞蹈創作中如何被「聽見」？資深音樂人李勁松（Dickson Dee）活躍於世界實驗音樂圈，風格多樣而創作形式多變，他笑言甚麼音樂類型都聽，並會找到自己喜歡的角度。
當音樂遇上舞蹈
李勁松曾參與多部舞蹈作品的配樂創作，訪問中提及的包括桑吉加的《煙花．冷》、《那一年．這一天》、劉琦的《臨池舞墨》、侯瑩的《Burning》等，而最近則是與桑吉加合作《停格中的塑像》，將2015年由意大利情迷當代舞團世界首演的舊作搬到香港。談到音樂與聲音在舞蹈作品裡的重要性，他認為，舞蹈作品裡的創作音樂，一般基於編舞對音樂的要求：「一般來說，我會先了解編舞的想法，從舞者排練的第一天便會開始參與，但亦試過單靠照片或文本去創作音樂；也有情況是需要隨團跟著舞者的狀況去創作。」就他過往的經驗，如音樂人有更深度的投入，「如我也參與編舞，則音樂和聲音就非常重要」。李勁松以自己參與編舞的作品《舞．聲．道》為例：「我採用了九宮八卦的概念，九個格內的舞者人數、肢體動作等會隨時間變化，而聲音的特質（音色、遠近）也是其中一個參數，所以音樂在這個作品裡不可或缺。」
《那一年．這一天》As If To Nothing／攝 Photo：Conrado Dy Liaco（照片由城市當代舞蹈團提供 Photo provided by City Contemporary Dance Company）
誠然當討論到音樂和舞蹈的關係，如果前者不是純粹為後者服務，而是希望產生更有意義的化學作用，則兩者是否有較主導的角色是一個有趣的問題。李勁松談及是編舞還是音樂先行，他覺得是「概念先行」：「音樂和舞蹈的關係視乎導演整體的處理，當表現某種情緒時，有時突出肢體，有時由音樂帶領，視乎導演怎樣去蘊釀這效果。我覺得最重要是不斷嘗試，雖然好像花多很多時間，但嘗試可能會產生新想法。」
曾擔任多部舞蹈作品的音樂與聲音設計，包括城市當代舞蹈團《恐．集》和憑賽馬會當代舞蹈平台《舞鬥》中〈點指〉的創作獲得香港舞蹈年獎「傑出聲音設計獎」的聲音設計師梁寶榮就認為，有些意念用舞蹈表達比較有效率，有些則用音樂較有效率，比如情感，這取決於他與編舞想要透露給觀眾的程度，「我覺得例如我想說明一個競爭的情境，可能直接表達較合適。」
然而，梁寶榮也強調重要的是「如何牽引觀眾去經歷我在思考的東西，有時太有效率的表達並非最理想……聲音和純音樂的效果也有點分別，音樂於情感表達上較直接，雖然聲音在理性上表達很直接，但感性上卻很委婉。」他以和梅卓燕合作的《日記VII ．我來給你講個故事……》內的雨聲為例，「這些雨聲難以讓人直接捕捉情感，它提供的可以是一種情感、一個情景，又或一段回憶，這樣委婉的表達反而給觀眾製造想像空間……傳統舞蹈講求音樂的能量、情緒要一致，但在當代舞蹈中我甚至會將音樂與舞蹈的距離拉遠一點，很多時候舞台空間裡各種元素，好像燈光、聲音、氣味、動作等會互相配合，衍生出新的效果，尤其舞蹈作品少了語言這一項，每種元素的重要性都相對提高。」
《日記VII．我來給你講個故事……》Diary VII • The Story Of…...／攝 Photo：Yvonne Chan（照片由大館提供 Photo provided by Tai Kwun）
當音樂人遇上編舞
音樂人的聽覺與編舞的視覺，他們接收訊息的敏銳度各異，合作又如何？梁寶榮認為，在構想音樂時，編舞很多時是從動作、空間、畫面出發，而他是從音樂角度去思考。他覺得「編舞是否熟悉音樂不太重要，反而在溝通的過程中，讓他了解我對聲音和音樂的看法，從中去商量如何讓聲音和動作建立一個關係……當然會有意見不同的時候，但我不覺得是妥協，反而是大家磨合的過程。好像在《日記VII》裡，小梅用流行歌《The Sound of Silence》來表達一個訊息，但我覺得這首歌的音樂風格以及當中的男聲和這套舞蹈不一致，而且舞蹈本身有訊息，音樂上可以不用太直接，最後我在音響上作出了調整，讓它聽起來模糊一些，大家找到處理的共識。」
李勁松談到與桑吉加合作的點滴：「在音樂上他給我很大自主權，音樂品味上也有部分相似；我有自己的唱片公司，也負責發行，可聽到很多音樂類型，我會與他分享我的聆聽經驗，合作的十幾年間也拉近了我和他對於音樂的認知和默契。」他分享《那一年．這一天》的既趕又樂的創作過程：「在排練室，當舞者展示肢體動作，我便會即興創作，然後記下桑吉加覺得合適的音色，再在這基礎上發展，給他不同的版本。我們邊排邊試，配搭了整個流程後我才正式創作。當他決定了怎合成舞蹈的部分，我便需要在最後十天完成音樂，然後入台。」
當兩人面對製作的挑戰
找到知音很難得，但製作往往是和時間競賽。李勁松坦言：「若創作人對作品還來不及仔細揣摩便要演出，很難產出優質之作。在參與《李爾王》時，鄧樹榮用很多時間和我們談論莎士比亞，讓各主創和表演者都有足夠時間在創作前消化導演的想法，令創作更順暢。」傾向自己演繹作品的梁寶榮也認為，尤其需要原創音樂和聘請樂手演繹時，時間更是重要。然而即使創作完成，場地因素也有可能影響演出成果。
《恐．集》Why Not Kill Us All／攝Photo：Mark Lam（照片由城市當代舞蹈團提供 Photo provided by City Contemporary Dance Company）
李勁松很重視場地的角色：「如果我能有多點時間先感受空間，效果會很不同，就算同一個作品在不同空間演出時我也會作出調整，例如為挪威舞蹈團Carte Blanche編創的作品《不在／不再》需要在巴黎的劇場合成，但正式表演場地是在挪威Bergen的大劇院，空間大得多，導致音樂的力量不夠，echo和reverb太強，聲音散了，我需要每個track再做mixing，將鼓和effect減少，重新再處理母帶，直至氣氛變得清晰，punch、energy重新出現。」
梁寶榮也認同，場地大小和觀演關係對音樂處理會有影響：「在創作過程中我會想像演出的空間以及和觀眾的溝通，這不單牽涉聲音，甚至影響我和編舞構想整個作品的表達方式。也會有到出台時需要調整的情況，最常見是聲量，因為聲量最直接影響作品的能量。」經常和海外團隊合作的李勁松說：「在香港，舞蹈作品裡的聲音經常被忽視，入台時間分配、製作費的比例都較少，這反映了投資者和監製對音樂的重視程度。小團體固然難以負擔原創音樂，而選用古典音樂、罐頭音樂，或忽略了音響質素。」
Music and Dance: Interviews with Music Creators Dickson Dee and Leung Po-wing
Text: Misty Choi
Translated by: Tiffany Wong
Music and sound play a delicate role in dance creations: some say the ideal state is as if you ‘do not hear’ sounds and music, if they coexist organically with other theatrical elements; yet in some cases, music is one of the core elements in dance works. So, what role do musicians and music in fact play in dance performances? How is music ‘heard’ in dance works? Dickson Dee is an experienced musician, active in the international experimental music scene and executing a multitude of styles in diverse forms. He says smilingly that he listens to music of any kind, and finds a perspective he likes.
《那一年．這一天》As If To Nothing／攝 Photo：Conrado Dy Liaco（照片由城市當代舞蹈團提供 Photo provided by City Contemporary Dance Company）
When music meets dance
Dee has participated in the creation of music scores for various dance works. Those mentioned when we interviewed him included Sang Jijia’s Fragile Beauty and As If To Nothing, Liu Qi’s Beyond Calligraphy, Hou Ying’s Burning and others. Recently he has been working with Sang on debuting Pa | Ethos in Hong Kong, a work Sang created in 2015 and premiered by the Milano Spellbound Contemporary Ballet. Speaking of the importance of sound and music in a dance work, he thinks that the music created for dance is usually based on the choreographer’s requirements. “In most cases, I will first get to know the choreographer’s ideas and take part in rehearsals with the dancers from day one. But I’ve also created music just from photos and text. In some cases, there’s a need to participate more and create music according to what the dancers are doing.” Based on his experience, the more the musician engages, the more impact there will be, “If I participate in the choreography as well, the music and the sound become very important.” As an example, Dee cites Momentum, a work in which he also took part in the choreography. “I took the concept of the eight tri-grams and the nine halls diagram, the number of dancers in the nine squares and how their physical movements transformed with time, while the characteristics of the sound (quality, distance…) was also one of the parameters. So music became an indispensable part of this work.”
《那一年．這一天》As If To Nothing／攝 Photo：Conrado Dy Liaco（照片由城市當代舞蹈團提供 Photo provided by City Contemporary Dance Company）
Frankly, when talking about the relationship between music and dance, if the former does not merely serve the latter, or rather exists in hopes of creating a more meaningful chemistry, it becomes interesting to ask if either of them plays a more leading role. When asked if dance or music comes first, Dee says he thinks it should be the concept that comes first. “The relationship between music and dance depends on the director’s choices. When exhibiting any kind of emotion, sometimes the lead comes from the bodily movements, sometimes it comes from the music. It really depends on how the director builds up the effect. I think the most important is to keep trying. Though it might seem time-consuming, continued attempts may bring new thoughts.”
As the music and sound designer of numerous dance works including Why Not Kill Us All by City Contemporary Dance Company, and receiving the award for “Outstanding Sound Design” in the 22nd Hong Kong Dance Awards for Over-master in the Hong Kong Jockey Club Contemporary Dance Series Dance Off, sound designer Leung Po-wing thinks that some concepts are expressed more effectively by dance, while others, such as emotions, are expressed more effectively through music. This depends on how much he and the choreographer decide to show the audience. “For example, when I want to convey a competitive situation, it might be more suitable to express it directly.”
However, Leung emphasizes that what’s important is “how to get the audience to experience what I’m thinking. Sometimes, it might be best not to express things too explicitly… There are differences in the effects brought by sounds and instrumental music. Music is a more direct expression of emotions whereas, although sound is more direct in rational expression, it is subtler when it comes to conveying emotion.” He mentions the rain sounds in Diary VII • The Story Of…..., a collaboration with Mui Cheuk-yin, as an example. “These rain sounds don’t really provide an emotion for the audience to grasp directly, They might be evoking a feeling, a situation, or a memory. This subtle expression, on the other hand, creates space for the audience to use their imagination… In traditional dance forms, the energy and emotion coming from the music are required to be in sync with the dance, but in contemporary dance, I would set a greater distance between music and dance. Usually, elements in the theatrical space like light, sound, smell, movement etc. combine to produce new effects. Especially in dance pieces, when language is absent, the importance of each element is heightened.”
《恐．集》Why Not Kill Us All／攝Photo：Mark Lam（照片由城市當代舞蹈團提供 Photo provided by City Contemporary Dance Company）
When musicians meet choreographers
A musician’s ear versus a choreographer’s eye — they have different sensitivity to signals — so, what happens when they collaborate? Leung thinks that, when creating work, choreographers usually start from actions, space and images, while he thinks from the perspective of music. He says, “It is not so important whether the choreographer is familiar with music. Instead, in the communication process, I would like to make him or her understand my views towards sounds and music, and then decide together how sounds and movements develop a correlation… Certainly, there would be times when our views aren’t in agreement, but I don’t think it’s a process of compromise. Rather, it’s a process of figuring each other out. For example, in Diary VII, Mui uses the pop song The Sound of Silence to convey a message, but I think the style of this song and the male voice in it do not fit with the dance. Also, the dance already has its own message, the music doesn’t need to be too explicit, so in the end I made changes in the sound output, making it vaguer to the ear. We came to a common understanding.”
Talking about his collaboration with Sang Jijia, Dee says, “In music, he gives me a large degree of autonomy, and we have similar musical tastes; I have my own record label, I’m also responsible for distribution, so I listen to many kinds of music. I would share my listening experience with him, and working together for over a decade has brought our perception and tacit understanding of music closer.” He talks about the rushed but enjoyable creative process for As If To Nothing. “In the rehearsal room, when dancers performed physical movements, I would improvise, take note of the tones in which Sang thought worked well to set a basis for development, then send him different versions. We tried out different things during rehearsals, and I started composing once we had the whole sequence laid out. When he had made his decisions on the dance combination, I had to finish all the music in ten days, and then we rehearsed on-site.”
Facing production challenges
It is hard to come by a person who appreciates the same things you do, but productions are always a race against time. Dee admits, “If the creator doesn’t have enough time to explore the work in detail before the performance, it is hard to produce high quality work. When participating in King Lear, Tang Shu-wing spent a lot of time discussing Shakespeare with us, giving sufficient time for creators and performers to digest the director’s perspective, making the creative process smoother.” Leung, who prefers performing his own works, also thinks that it is very important to allow enough time, especially when there is a need for original music and hiring musicians. Yet even if the creative part is done, factors surrounding the performance venue would also affect the performance quality.
《恐．集》Why Not Kill Us All／攝Photo：Mark Lam（照片由城市當代舞蹈團提供 Photo provided by City Contemporary Dance Company）
Dee attaches a lot of importance to the role of the performance venue, “If I have enough time to feel the space, the effect is very different. Even for the same work, when shown in different spaces, I make adjustments. For example, Not here/ Not ever, created for Norwegian dance company Carte Blanche, had to be mixed in a theatre in Paris, but the performance took place in the grand theatre in Bergen in Norway, which is a much bigger space. The music wasn’t powerful enough, the echo and reverb were too strong, the sounds were scattered. I had to mix every track again, lowering the drums and effects, redoing the mother tape until the atmosphere became clear and the punches and energy came out again.”
Leung agrees that the size of the venue and performer-audience relationship has a strong impact on the arrangement of the music. “During the creative process, I would imagine the performance space and the communication with the audience. This doesn’t only involve sounds, this might also affect how the choreographer and I design the whole work. There will also be times when we have to adjust when we adapt to the performance venue; the most common element is the volume, because volume is the most direct factor affecting the work’s energy.” Dee, who often works with overseas companies, says, “In Hong Kong, the sound in dance works is often neglected. On-site rehearsal schedules allow less time for musicians and budgets are usually smaller. This shows the lower value investors and producers here place on music. Small companies certainly cannot afford original music, and tend to opt for classical or other pre-composed music, and the quality of the music is overlooked.”
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蔡嘉雯
Misty Choi
美國杜克大學音樂學博士候選人，研究方向包括意大利二十世紀戰後實驗音樂劇場以及電影音樂。
A PHD candidate in Music at Duke University in the USA. Her research areas include experimental music theatre in 20th century post-war Italy, and film scores.
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